What was really interesting is having access to resources, you know, to look up things online.
That's why I tell developers today, especially with AI, I mean, developer job today got so
easy that, you know, the hard lifting, it's like using a calculus calculator.
And it was at that very moment when I was 22, when I wrote my first enterprise software,
that's when I knew that this is what I want to do for, I want to implement SOA, service
oriented architecture, because it's the trends and everybody's doing it.
The boss is like, I don't care if it's the trend, get me a system now.
I mean, I went from using IDEs and management consoles and command prompts to using Outlook
and PowerPoint and Excel.
I saw that there's huge opportunities in Morocco and in the region because Microsoft was great
about it, is that they introduce you to big clients, big offices, big ministries, big
industrial.
My first client was really Microsoft.
The biggest pride we have is from the TGV project as well, the ticketing that we worked
with the mindset of that was really amazing projects with an amazing client.
Back then when Algo was a startup, the startup was an insult.
I couldn't say, you know, startup in French was like, hey, three people, you're four people.
We're not going to give you a big project that now startups is fashion.
Everybody's talking about doing their startup.
Everybody's doing.
I love.
I remember my father telling me that it's hard to work for the government tenders.
That's complicated.
Number one thing is when you're a salary employee, I mean, at the end of the month, you know
your salary is coming.
But when you're the boss, the end of the month, if the salary doesn't come, you can't sleep
because you have people to pay, people are not paying you on time, things get complicated.
The funny story where you work for the government and the government doesn't pay you on time
and that same government is asking you why you're late on taxes, no GS and never coded
in, you know, react.
So I was like, hey, I'm going to install this and, you know, coding this and see how it
works.
And I like for my kids or anyone who has kids, you have to teach them coding because that's
pure logic.
We created Lamaoka and the e-service as a startup, especially for the application of
Uraqi.
And what Uraqi is, Uraqi is a 10-year project, 20 million they have invested so far with
all the difficulties and we believe that all this bureaucracy one day it's going to go
and has come today.
I mean, the main idea of Uraqi is how do we digitize Morocco's government in a Moroccan
way?
To us, strategy starts with what we know.
It starts with them.
It starts with Mokata.
It starts where our paperwork starts.
Why do we need to notarize legal is our signature?
Let's put an app to that.
So welcome guys to YLLS Code podcast.
A podcast where interview software engineer to share their own top producer.
We are in the first episode of season number two and we have a special guest, Tariq Fadli.
He is an experienced tech leader with over 20-year experience, also a software engineer
by degree.
He got his degree in computer science in the University of Denver in the USA in 2004.
And he has been working in the tech space for more than 20 years.
He is the co-founder of La Moroccan e-service, also known as Raqi, the company behind digital
transformation in the public sector in Morocco.
Also the founder of Algo Consulting Group, which is similar to the other company but
for the private sector more.
So let's get to know more about Tariq Fadli's story after this intro.
So Tariq, thank you for accepting my invitation.
It will be a pleasure hosting you for today's episode.
So can you give the introduction about yourself so the people can know more about you?
Well, you said it all.
Yes, of course.
First of all, thank you for inviting me to such a podcast.
Today I'm an entrepreneur, but like you said, I started my career as a software developer.
And actually it goes beyond my career.
I was a geek by trade when I was a kid.
I think I wrote my first code or my first software when I was 14 or 15.
It was something for my mom's office that she was a lawyer.
And I saw that she was one of the first people that invested in a computer back in 1992-93.
A computer was very expensive, I remember.
Very well that she paid something like 40,000 Nair Hams, $4,000 for an Omega computer that
was running MS-DOS.
I don't think you know what MS-DOS is.
And then they installed Windows on it.
This was in my mom's office, but upstairs my dad had a Macintosh that he brought from
the university.
So upstairs was a Macintosh, downstairs was a DOS Windows 3.0 with Arabic.
And she hired someone to develop, I think it was a COBOL based software that's prompt
based that organizes her agenda for trials and court and like that.
And I remember her complaining a lot about how much money she had to pay this guy.
And it was really expensive.
And so I used to sneak in to her office when it's closed and I used to wait for my dad to
go to sleep because I was not allowed to touch the computer.
It was a serious expensive tool to work with.
So I had to sneak around and figure my way around it and get my hand in the code.
Luckily that guy, I remember his last name, he was one of the first software engineers
I met.
It was Zaroqi, I think.
And he left a guy actually in her office, he left a COBOL guy in her office.
So he was in French, luckily at 14, 13 I was able to be French.
Okay, so that was my first time, you know, really coding or getting my hands in the code.
And after that, multimedia world showed up.
I had to help my dad install a sound card, a CD-ROM player, speakers on the computer.
So we had to open it and figure out how to do that and figure out, you know, how to install
the drivers.
Back then we didn't, you know, you had to install the drivers via diskettes, not CDs,
for the CD to work.
And there was no internet.
So there was no internet out of Morocco.
I think internet came to Morocco in 95 or 96 and it was just in EqualMahmedia, there's
an engineer in the robot.
And so that's where it started.
That's where the beginning was, sounds.
That's really good.
So you have been like a geek since you have been a child.
And this is where like a software engineer mindset or like a passion come from and it's
really amazing.
Because I remember some of the things that you mentioned like at the cassette and stuff
because I was like, which is like a floppy desk.
So I was like, also, I started like a touching computer in 2005, 2006.
So in this area, there is like a sealed internet, it's pretty slow in Morocco.
And this was not that accessible, it was very expensive.
And also the infrastructure was not that good, intermoved like a computer or intermoved
the internet.
But with the current stage, it's like a very big changes from the old age.
Absolutely.
I mean, someone like me, I mean, I'm old, I'm 44.
So I remember a lot, I remember cell phones when they first came out in Morocco.
I remember, you know, the first modems that made the noise.
But what I recall is the first one, the first time I connected to the internet, I was in
Munich, Germany.
I was 16, it was 96.
That's the first time I connected to the internet.
I think the second time when I came back, it was Ecol Mohammedia.
And then I left to the U.S. Of course, when I arrived in the U.S. in 98s, you know, internet
was was, you know, pretty common in every home they had, you know, we call it the DSL.
The DSL here in Morocco, but it's DSL over there.
And they had cable internet that was very fast, too, that was impressive.
But what was really interesting is having access to resources, you know, to look up
things online.
That's why I tell developers today, especially with AI, I mean, the developer job today got
so easy that, you know, the hard lifting, it's like using a calculus calculator.
I didn't actually even know there was a calculator that does calculus.
I mean, when we studied, studied mathematics in Morocco, you had to draw the own chart
and then start solving.
And then I go to the U.S. and everybody pulls this big calculator with this big screen and
they're like, oh, we can graph this, you just, you know, f of x equals then you put it in
the calculator and I was like, wow, this is cheating.
But they're like, no, no, that's a basic operation.
So that was that was something interesting.
My career really took off when I ended in the U.S. because I worked at the computer
lab as a lab assistant.
And that was really an amazing opportunity.
I didn't know how important that job was until a couple of years later when I when I got
hired in the first company.
That job allowed me to touch on several technologies.
I was touching on a novel network, I was touching on Linux, I was touching on networking, Cisco,
I was doing Oracle, I learned a little bit of SQL server, it was 6.0 back then.
It wasn't even SQL 2000.
I was learning visual basic, I was learning C++, I was learning Java, I was learning JavaScript
that just came out, HTML was a given.
I thought a course of QBasic with logic and design.
And I did all of this stuff before the age of 20.
So I did that in two years when I was in college.
When I was 20, actually I had a headhunter that was taking a computer science course
with me, C++, were interested in data structures.
And he said he has a client that's looking for someone who knows software development
and knows networking and knows system administration.
I think I said, I don't know that, I do it, but I don't know it because in my mindset
I was not ready to hit the job market.
To me, I mean I need to finish my degree, once I graduate, then go look for a job.
And here I am, two years into college, the job is here.
So I said no, my dad said no.
And I took him up on his offer and sure enough, I passed the technical test and I got my really
first job as a software developer when I was 20 at this company and the rest was history.
So I worked at the computer lab, I was teaching at the university and then when I was 20,
I got that job and my career took off.
I actually had to stop going to school for a couple of years to finish a huge enterprise
software that I was developing using visual basic, crystal reports and SQL server.
So that project took me two years, I coded it alone from A to Z, it was the most daunting
and most satisfying thing I've ever done.
So here I am, 22 presenting to 500 people, a new software custom made for them that manages
their labs, manages their structural engineering and moving from Access and Excel to this custom
made software.
So I did the entire demo, it took four hours and then they got up and they applauded me.
And it was at that very moment when I was 22, when I wrote my first enterprise software,
that's when I knew that this is what I want to do for a living and I love it because it's
fun, it's challenging, it gets hard sometimes.
It's like a puzzle, we have to figure out problems.
And what's most satisfying about it is that when you see your hard work being used by
others to make their life easy.
So there is no way to satisfaction than that and then of course this company when the IT
team grew up and they needed to appoint an IT manager or CIO, I was chosen for the role.
So I became CIO when I was 23, leading a team of five professionals who had the degrees
and I didn't.
That's really amazing, that's really amazing that you did all of this in your like from
your 20 to 23, it's really amazing that you did a lot of good things and are really amazing
to hear the story about how this went and also I have a question, like when did you
move to the US?
Because I saw in your LinkedIn that you moved to the US for studying at the community college,
so I think probably you studied here in Morocco and after that after getting your bachelor
like a baccalaureate in Morocco, you go to the US before?
I had my high school graduation in Binsleeman, Liseh Hasentani, that's where I graduated,
I think I had, I barely had the, the, the average passing scores so and then because
my parents didn't have a lot of money, I mean usually I wanted to go to the University of
Corail at Denver directly and just a little detail, what you said the University of Denver,
there's a University of Denver, that's a private school, that's very expensive where
Condoleezza went, my brother who's a lawyer went there, but I didn't go to the University
of Denver, I went to the University of Colorado at Denver, okay, they're two different schools,
so but in order to make my landing easier and cheaper, I started at a community college
called Red Rocks Media College, so I went two years there and then after that I went
to the University of Colorado, so community college is easier to get to, it is cheaper,
it is more flexible because I was working so I had like night courses, weekend courses,
accelerated courses, like I remember I took a sociology course in two months, that was
eight weekends, Saturday Sunday, Saturday Sunday, Saturday Sunday, that's better than,
I mean all day, it's like from, from eight to five, so that's better than, you know doing
four months twice a week. I like that. Then I moved on to University of Colorado. When
I went back to finish my degree, it was very hard because I had already been working. I
had already been developing software. So that's why I discovered that business and academia
in software development, sometimes they don't work together because in academia, you're
supposed to learn the science behind it, the technical aspect of it. But in the business
world, it's different. The boss and the market doesn't care if you encapsulate your functions
or if you used proper name standard in coding. They really don't care. They don't see the
code. They just see if it works and when it works. So I had to balance between time to
market and proper academia.
That's really amazing. Yeah, got you. Yeah. Yeah, it's really hard to be able, if you already
like have been working in the market and you go back to study, it will be a different way
because in the academic, it will be behind the scene of the function and the stuff than
rather than the impact and the business impact of it. That's really amazing.
That actually followed me when I become a manager. I used to lead the team self to the
wrong person. And I really had a problem with these really smart, smart software engineers.
But then we'd waste some time trying to find ways to do it better and I'm like, no, it works.
It works. It works. Forget it. Move on to other things. We have to deploy this. No, no, no,
there's this school way. We're not here to do pool. The boss is waiting for the point.
We are here to make money. Yeah, exactly.
There is a lot of software engineer that overengineered stuff because they don't see the
business impact of that time wasted. That will be wasted. It's not will be wasted, but technically
or like a from business side, it will be wasted because the employee is paying for your time.
So if you are overengineering, we'll be using the company time. So it will be wasted.
The money at the end of the semester, shareholders would meet and say, okay,
IT costs us this much. What did we get for this much? Let's say like back then, I remember
like I had a yearly budget of like half a million dollars. And what I first was appointed, and I
was like, okay, you spent half a million dollars. What do you have to show for it? You can't tell
them, hey, we're still debugging the system and we're refactoring. What we're refactoring is,
why are you refactoring? Oh, because we need to optimize and implement. Well, back then,
we may have microservices, but we'll not implement SOA, service oriented architecture,
because it's the trends and everybody's doing it. The boss is like, I don't care if it's the trend,
keep me a system that works. So that was very important to get out of the academic mindset
and go into the business mindset. Yeah, exactly. And this is the stuff that you need to be able to
become an entrepreneur and as a software engineer, this is the mindset that you have.
It's like, we need to make money. You are not here writing the code for the sake of the code,
but for getting like an actual business impact. So talking about your timeline and so you get your
first full time job without degree. After that, you go back to finish your degree and get graduated.
So after that, did you get another job in the US or you moved back to Morocco?
So that's to get the timeline. Well, when I was CIO, I actually achieved good things with the
company, good results. And to me, I mean, with all respects, I owe to CIOs. Once you're with
technology, when you become a manager, you don't touch technology often. So I noticed that, you
know, my life was not as challenging, was not as interesting. I mean, I was becoming
what I call a pencil pusher, like, you know, signing time sheets, signing expenses, doing
meetings. I mean, I went from using IDEs and management consoles, and command prompts to
using Outlook and PowerPoints and Excel. That wasn't fun. I mean, it's nice because you learn
new things about strategy, about business, you know, about vision and leadership. It was all
good exercises. But, you know, I felt like I reached the top of the company. I mean, this is a
civil engineering company. It's called CTL Thompson, still exists in Colorado. But I was the CIO. So
the next step is to become what? CEO, I can't. I need to be a civil engineer. I need to be a
structural engineer. I need to be a construction engineer, which I'm not. And I'm not planning
on being that. So to me, I've reached the heights. So I started looking at other job offers. I
remember getting a job from Berkshire Hathaway, which belongs to Warren Buffett. And I was really
excited about it. I interviewed, it was a VP of IT, Solutions Architect or something like that.
And I mean, the job involved some technical work as well.
So I wanted to consider the job, but then the company I was at CTL Thompson, they came back
with a counter offer and made me shareholder of the company. And that actually satisfied me for
like a few months. And then I was like, even if I'm a shareholder, which is a great honor. I mean,
500 people working there, you're one of 18 or 20 people who own the company. So that's a huge
honor to someone who was like 24 or 25. And then I was like, well, look, we innovated, we built a
system called Nomad, which is like a tablet application that allows their engineers and
technicians to enter data directly into the software that I built instead of filling out paper
and giving them to agents to enter them into the software to do calculations. And I told them,
hey, I have an idea. Let's do a new startup. Let's do a spin off company where you own 80%.
I own 20. And let's sell this product to our competition. And of course, you know, when you
meet with the board, you know, managers, you get a division, you get people saying, are you crazy?
This is our competitive edge. This tool makes us better than the other competition.
Instead of turning a report in three days, we can turn it in three hours. Thanks to this software.
And you want to give it to our competition. And my argument was, well, the competition
can hire someone better than me and my team and develop the same thing. We didn't invent anything.
You know, they can go copy it. And there they have it. Why not sell them our products and control
our competition in a different segment? Because they're spending money, they're spending it.
Might as well, we get that money. And we control that technology. And we might be able to learn
new things for the other business that we can improve on. So that took a while. It didn't take
off. It was too slow for my taste. So I left there and I went for my first consulting job
for a company called Blue Layer Technology based in San Francisco. And then that I was there for
a few months, then I was hired by National Student Loans as a CTO. And there I think I was
nine months or a year. And that was an amazing project. I really loved it. And when I was there
and delivered the project, that's what Microsoft called and offered me the lead solutions architect
for Middle East and Africa. And that's how I came back tomorrow. Awesome. That's really amazing to
hear all of this like a part because I couldn't get hold of them in the LinkedIn profile that you
have profile that you have. I think Blue Layer, the partners David and Ryan, I think, they did
something else. So Blue Layer doesn't exist. CTO doesn't exist. National Student Loans doesn't
exist. It was bought out by Fannie Mae, I think, or Merrill Lynch or something like that. It was
after the 2008 financial crisis. So I left right in time. But I'm still in touch with some expo
So Microsoft, of course, still exists. It's very on too. And yeah. Yes.
Awesome. So you came back to Morocco because of the offer that you got from Microsoft to become a
lead solution architecture for the Middle East region. And after that, did you like you start
your company Algo Consultant Group? So currently you are the founder of Algo Group, which is a
company that's helped like the businesses in the private sector with digital transformation.
Can you give us more insights about Algo Expert and how was Algo Consultant Group and how was
the experience going from being a full time employee to getting your first step into tech
entrepreneurship? Well, Algo was great. I mean, I never thought I was going to be an entrepreneur.
Algo was created out of circumstances of me. Two things happening. On one side, I saw that there's
huge opportunities in Morocco and in the region because with Microsoft, what was great about it
is that they introduce you to big clients, big offices, big ministries, big industrials. So that
opens the door wide for someone like me who was 27, 28 back then. And I saw that there was
opportunities for serious consultants, serious integrators. And at the same time, I endured
what I'm going to call a cultural shock of coming back because you leave the country
you're 18, you come back almost 28, that's 10 years. It wasn't all great for me. Maybe I was the
problem. I'm not saying people were the problem. Maybe it was me. That's definitely me. So I saw
that there was an opportunity. So I decided I talked to my boss back then. I said, Hey,
this is what I want to do. And I want to wear a different hat. And they were cool about it.
They made an exception. Because some important clients like the train company here, ONCF and Zain
in Jordan, those were clients I was working with that really appreciated my work. And I appreciated
them back because they were serious. And, you know, my first client for Algo, I mean, I called
the Algo from Algorithm from Chawarizmi. And my first client was really Microsoft. So my first
work orders, the four, the three work orders were Microsoft. The fourth one was a public tender
that we won with ONCF. And the fifth one was also a public tender. So then you started now.
Algo is 17 years old, 18, something like that. And 70 people, huge references.
And we're really proud because we really touched millions of lives. During COVID,
we put the system in place for our country. We contributed like the biggest pride we have is
from the TGV project as well. The ticketing that we worked with ONCF that was really amazing
projects with an amazing client. And it was great to see the mind changing, you know.
Back then when Algo was a startup, the startup was an insult. I couldn't say, you know,
startup in French was like, hey, three people, you're four people, we're not going to give you a
big project. And now seeing that, you know, like ONCF was like the one of first months that worked
with the startup really, which they weren't used to it. I mean, you have to be a Microsoft, IBM,
Oracle, you know, for them to take you seriously. And that's great to witness the paradigm shift,
the cultural shift towards really encouraging Moroccan youth to start their endeavor, to be
entrepreneurs, and to gain the trust of big national companies. That's a privilege for me to
witness this change in Morocco and to see that now startups is fashion. Everybody's talking about
doing their startup. Everybody's doing, I love it because back then I saw how hard it's still hard
to be an entrepreneur. It's still hard to be a startup. I'm not saying it's easy. I mean, I live
it every day. After 18 years, I'm still, you know, living similar problems, but at different scales,
you know, but it's, you know, it's a choice. It's a lifestyle. And if you choose to do so,
you have to be able to take the advantages and the big disadvantages as well.
Okay. So talking about switching hat from being a software engineer that's working full time,
like for Microsoft and other company and being at the founder of tech company or tech startup in
Morocco. What are the advantages and disadvantages of this new, like a life change or life decision
because it's like a big step or like a big change because you are currently, you will be managing
a lot of people and a lot of products and you will be not be in the technical or the coding side,
but more on the business side or getting products, managing products and managing people.
So what are this advantage of and this advantage of this career choice?
I mean, I use different terms. I like to use different terms. I don't manage people. I need
you manage projects, you manage things, you manage objects, you manage artifacts.
People need to be led. People need to be inspired. People need to be trusted.
And that's most of the time that's a very difficult thing to do.
When you're young, I think you're naive or stupid. No, not stupid, but you're very naive.
I was very naive and I'm glad I was naive because if I wasn't, I would have never started.
I remember my father telling me that it's hard to work for the government tenders.
That's complicated, but I was so full of myself. I was so confident and cocky and
just playing out dumb and stupid that I was like, hey, I'm going to try it.
If I had to redo it, knowing what I know now, I probably would have changed a lot of things,
but hey, there's no time traveling machine. You just learn and grow up and try to not make
the same mistakes. But the change was huge because number one thing is when you're a salary employee,
I mean, at the end of the month, you know your salary is coming. But when you're the boss,
the end of the month, if the salary doesn't come, you can't sleep because you have people to pay,
people are not paying you on time, things get complicated. The funny story where you work for
the government and the government doesn't pay you on time and that same government is asking you
why you're late on taxes. That only happens here, you know. But that's just one example of things
that you have to deal with. And then you learn that humans are very important aspects of every
business. I mean, I chose software engineering because the relationship with the machine was
very binary. It's one or zero. You either code it right or get the hell out of here. It's as pure
and simple as that, you know. But relationships with humans are complicated. There is no ones and
zeros. Between one and zero or zero or one, there is an infinite number of possibilities until you
get to one. And it's really quantum, you know, in all its states. So, but that takes learning.
You know, it's a totally different experience. Sometimes you randomness, you miss coding,
you miss, you know, IDE. I mean, the other day, for the first time I was bored. So I started,
you know, installing things to, you know, code. I never coded in Node.js and never coded in,
you know, React. So I was like, Hey, I'm going to install this and, you know, coding this and see
how it works. And I like it. But reality catches on when you get a couple of emails or phone call
and you're gone. I mean, the fun lasted one hour, one hour and a half. And that's it. This was like
a month ago. Also, yeah, I got you. Talking about the stuff that you mentioned recently, like the
last part that you mentioned, did you miss the coding part and the fun part of coding when you
are like a being an entrepreneur, take on the entrepreneur. Right now, if someone in my team
tells me, I would get to be, I mean, I could just code and not manage any other aspects and things
will be in total under control doing okay. I'll definitely. One of my dreams is if I retire
anytime soon, is to, you know, play with, you know, robotics, Raspberry Pi,
you know, things like that, just like playing with Legos and spend all day coding and just,
you know, setting up labs and doing it without having to worry about business and revenue and
shareholders and, you know, bonuses and taxes and performance and
yeah, I think I'm ready to do something and retire. That's really good. That's really good.
It does show the passion of coding and it's really something that is special
like I should have because when you are passionate about specially coding,
you are always thinking about it and it's really, I think it's really special skills to have.
Absolutely. I mean, coding to me is like, you know, when you're a kid and you play with Legos,
that same innocent kid playing with Legos, that's the feeling you get when, you know, you're
in front of a blank page coding, you feel like a creator, you know, you feel like,
I'm going to say God, I'm just going to say creator. That's why I like programming and
coding better because you create things and you see them move and you see them do, you see them,
it's almost like your code is alive and it's doing something that's useful for people. So
to me, software engineering is probably up there on noble, you know, professional careers like
doctors and lawyers and judges and teachers and policemen and firemen, you know,
all these people have a noble aspect to it. I think software engineering is one of them because
if you really think about it, look at how our life is prospering, how AI is solving many issues.
We all got there thanks to software engineering. Yes, exactly. And those I think like a coding,
it's not just about the technical side also, it's like a mindset and those which will improve your,
like how you are thinking about problems because when you are like a passion about and you develop
like a skills, you will be like in your personal life, you will be thinking about problem differently
than before. Absolutely. I mean, I don't know if you know, famous people like Barack Obama, Kanye
West, they took coding lessons, you know, and coding, I mean, to me, for my kids or anyone who has
kids, you have to teach them coding because that's pure logic. You become very logical in mind and
that helps you a lot in your daily life into solving problems. I mean,
it just makes life easier when you know logic and you know how to code. Back then, I used to hear
that if you don't speak English and if you don't know how to use a computer, you are an alphabet,
okay? I think today, if you don't speak English and then Spanish and then Mandarin
and you don't know how to code, you are illiterate. You're an alphabet because guess what? Our future
is all machines and robots. If you don't know how a machine works and how to talk to it, you have
some problems, especially surviving if this all breaks into chaos, you know. You need to know how
these machines work. I mean, we're going to be the, you know, the matrix in the future. It's,
you know, it's geek, so we're going to save the planet, you know? Yes, yeah. That's true.
Yeah. And also, like for me, I recommend people to learn coding not because to get a job at coding,
but just, it's like a personal development skills. You will improve as a person,
not only like to get a job as a software engineer. That's something very important,
sorry to interrupt you. And that's, that's a very important point because I've seen, I mean,
I've hired software engineers who studied computer science just because they heard it's a good career.
Kids, don't do that. Don't do that. If you don't love it, if you're not in love with coding, please
stay with computer science because you're just going to end up being a smart person who is good at
math, but only hates his job. And he does it from nine to five and five, he stops thinking about the
problem he's trying to code all day and goes home and he's miserable. The company he works for and
his colleagues are not all performing well. Coding is for people who take the problem with them. I
remember I used to take a shower thinking about this loop. Why is it not iterating right? Why is it,
why am, what am I missing in my algorithm? How can it run faster? How do I optimize it?
Why am I not getting the right results? And he take a shower and then he showers.
Wait, I got to try this. And then, you know, you walk out a shower, you tell in front of the computer
and your wife is like, Lace said, you know, this guy, so that's, that's someone that can go far.
Yeah, that's true. If you are not passionate about software engineering, you will hit a limit
and you will hit the wall. So because like, I'm very passionate about what I'm doing. And also,
I'm taking my laptop on everywhere at the time going, even on vacation, I am like trying to do
a side product, do something like, because I love what I'm doing. So that's why I like to keep trying
and to keep experimenting with stuff, which is really fun way to see like an impact of the thing
that way to see like an impact of this. So we talk about the Algo consulting group. And I think
which is the same thing for like an American service. It's this one, the Algo consulting group
is for private sector. But the other one is for the public sector, also known as Raqi.
This is one of the famous projects in Morocco lately, like a tree able to digitalize the
Moroccan public sector. Can you give us more insight about this stuff? And why did you make
this decision to like a get into the public sector because it's really hard? Well, to clarify,
Algo is for both public and private. Algo is the first company. And it's through Algo adventure
that we got to work with a lot of government entities and learn what are the problem in
digitizing government in Morocco. So we created Lamarok and the eService as a startup, especially
for the application of Raqi. And what Raqi is, Raqi is a 10 year project, 20 million
dirhams invested so far. With all the difficulties in the world, for instance,
20 million dirhams taxes came to see us and say, okay, how come you spent 20 million dirhams and
you made zero dirhams? Well, because in our tax code, we don't have research and development.
They accuse us of laundering money because nobody spends that much on something that doesn't make
money. Because we believe in Morocco, we believe in our country, we believe that all this bureaucracy,
one day it's going to go. And as come today, today, there's these events, the World Cup,
Morocco is now on the map, we're doing amazing things, our country is growing, is prospering,
our youth is amazing, we're shining at all levels. So it's the time. I mean, maybe 10 years was too
early, but it's never too early. And Raqi came the idea of, I mean, the main idea of Raqi is,
how do we digitize Morocco's government in a Moroccan way? How do we tackle what doesn't
work in Morocco, avoiding what big five cabinets, consulting, consultancy firms tell us to do,
you know, when they sell us four or five million dirhams, power points about strategy.
To us, strategy starts with what we know, it starts with them, it starts with
Muqata, it starts where our paperwork starts. Why do we need to notarize? Legal is our signature.
Let's put an app to that. Let's make it fast. Let's start by digitizing this service that is
the entry of every government service. And once we do that, we can do everything. So our dream for
Raqi is to have one app where you have all the work, any documents that belongs to you
that the government has, you have it instantly, whether it's a birth certificate, driver's license,
ID, passport, scholar, a degree, medical certificate, anything that belongs to you,
you should be able to get it instantaneously with just one click. That's the dream of Raqi,
and we started with the hardest procedure, and right now we're live. We have about 20,000 users,
10,000 are active, we're still testing, but the official live is going to be in generally
with communication. Right now, we're not communicating, but I want to take advantage
of your podcast to invite especially software engineers to test the app, test the website,
and give us your feedback. This is not our project. We're working with many government
entities. This is all Moroccan people's projects. Okay, so I want to invite everyone to contribute,
to test, to tell us what works, to give us suggestions, give us ideas. We have a support
team, we have chat, we have a forum you can fill out online, you can chat with us via email,
just test it, run it, and tell us what you think. Awesome, that's really good. That's really great
thing to hear, and thank you for the initiative to be able, this initiative, because it's really
important, because I know the headache of, important, because I know the headache of
like moqata and asking where the moqadim is, and you will very rarely find it in your area,
so you need to call him to be able to get like a simple signature for something that I would say
is not really important. That's like, for example, I had like at the back, like just recently,
to renovate my passport, I have the moqadim to sign a paper to be able to renovate. Yeah,
which is, I don't know what's the like the important of the moqadim signature, because
information, it needs to know what you do.
Yeah, you have to know everything. Absolutely, but see now that's changing,
people we work with at these administrations, they're really great, they're making
moratos digital advancements a priority. There is resistance down at the bottom,
you know, there is resistance, because you know, I mean, things like that,
but the management, they are fully on board, they support us, they really maintain good contact
with us, they give us suggestions, they're really pushing the projects. But of course,
when you're at the down level, you're going to see some resistance, that's human, that's normal,
but we're the ones who are going to change it all together and so on. Yeah, makes sense,
gets you. And talking about this project, because it's have like a really great vision,
and you mentioned it very well, what do you think are the challenges of making this vision happen,
or what are the challenges that you face while building this project specifically?
The answer to this question is going to be, you're going to have to wait for the book
that I will write once this is all the point. So it's honestly, it's been a very long journey,
I never thought it was going to take 10 years. When I had the idea, I thought it was going to be
three, maybe maybe five years at the top, turns out to be 10. And that's for a reason,
it's not just change is slow, bureaucracy is slow, but also we didn't have the laws,
we didn't have many things to get us to the point we are today. Today, we have everything we need,
we're integrated with the police system, we have authorization from CNDP, because we're
adhering to respecting privacy and the laws we're hosting in Morocco. We're working with the
distributors of electronic signature, they're all validated by the Ministry of Defense.
I mean, all this stuff and the laws, especially the laws that decrease, all these laws take
a lot of time. So there is a rumor that says that soon the signature notary will be
eliminated in Morocco. We're no longer going to need it, you just can sign digitally using
Iraqi and it's instantaneous. You don't go anywhere and it's done the right way. So that's
where we headed. And of course, we're going to add other services like from Paddam, if you need
them Paddam, you're going to find the app and the app is going to take care of it for you,
including Paddam. And other services with Moroccan customs, with the police, with justice,
with education, it's coming soon. Awesome, that's really great to hear. And I'm really excited to
be able to see this stuff in life, in the production, because for me to be honest with you,
when I'm seeing a project in the digital world, from the public sector, I have a lower expectation
because I might not get the expectation that I'm looking for, but with the product that you
mentioned and how the vision is made, I think I'm pretty excited about this world specifically.
Something you're right about is that public sector suffers a lot from being late in digital
development. And that doesn't mean that people who work in public sector are incompetent
or don't want to. It's very simple. bureaucracy all over the world is heavy. The people we work
with are very smart. They are very qualified. They are people that we use to work in a private
sector, in banks, in international companies. The problem they have is the bureaucracy,
the machine is heavy. Let's say Morocco is operated now by an administration and they
didn't have stood that too. Let's say they need more memory or they need a feature change.
That's a change management and administrative procedure. They have to launch an RFP. They
have to be respect the law of competition and make sure all companies know that there is this
work and bid on it and get the best price and make sure it's transparent. It's legal. All this blah
is the law. You have to do it. But that takes six months or a year. So if the server broke
and it's an administration, if they don't have a good maintenance contract in place,
the quality of the service is going to suffer. The support team, this is a 24-hour service.
You know, Rocky works 24 hours. Administration closes at three. Who's going to support you there?
So this is an understanding that the public and private sector came to and say,
and it was even in his majesty, the king's speech, saying that the public and the private,
they need to get close together and work together in all transparency and make sure that innovation
new ways of doing things are fostered. And let's step away from the classic scenario. And that's
what's happened. This is huge because you have to analyze things. You know, Morocco is 1200 years
old. Rain resist change. The good thing about resisted change in our history is look at us.
We've never been invaded by violence or war. I mean, we signed a protectorate, the Amazigh,
you know, never really got invaded by the Arabs. It was just a deal, you know. This is good force
because we protect our culture. Look at how rich our heritage is. Not just Moroccan cuisine,
but Moroccan architecture, Moroccan art, culture. It's that resistance that made us who we are
today that we held on to our traditions and values. That same thing sometimes is negative because
we don't want to change the way we want to do things. But today we don't have a choice. We have to
hold on to our cultural values and then be open to technology, to digital transformation,
to the future, to AI, to blockchain and see how we can combine modernity with tradition.
Yeah, makes sense. It's got you. This is like I mentioned this point because this was from my
personal experience, like I would like to see in this digital product from the public sector.
And you really clarify the reason behind that late or not like a functionality, not the product
function well. This is a lot of things that happen behind the scene that we don't have access to.
But I think this also, we need to communicate that well. So the other person or the end user
know what is causing this issue. So I think also there's a communication issue. But yeah,
this is just thank you so much for clarifying that. I appreciate that.
So also you have been part of like a Moroccan city called like it's like at the Shark Tank
Moroccan Virgin who invests in my project or Kunis smartphone store in Arabic. Can you give us
how was the experience and how was the experience? Well, that was a very, very amazing experience.
I thank my friend Mehdi Ailaoui for inviting me to it. The reason I did it was really to
contribute my own way. You know, my humble means, if there were any, and encourage the ecosystem
because we need more entrepreneurs. We need to trust our youth to really invest in themselves and
need to be encouraged. Like I said, Morocco has changed. When I started, I had nowhere to turn
but to myself and friends and family for loans and things like that. But today, there's no excuse.
Morocco has many, many mentoring programs. There's many programs to raise funds to push things all
the way. There is a new digital strategy that encourages youth to do research and development.
And they can have a scholarship to be paid monthly so they don't have to worry about a living.
So, I mean, this is just exciting time for you guys. I wish I was your agent and know what I know now.
That's really amazing. So, we touched a lot of things. And is there a plan for the next
season of the episode? Because I think it was only for one season or is there a plan to have it in
other seasons or you don't have to have it in other seasons? I don't have any information. I think
a bit for a couple of seasons. But I really have no idea what's going on. And of course,
if we do it again, I'm glad they contribute and see, you know, it's interesting for me too,
because you get to meet young Moroccans, young entrepreneurs. You get to see what ideas are
out there. That's a very good learning experience. It's very enriching. Yeah, awesome. So, I have a
question because you have been like doing a tech startup for quite some time in Morocco,
specifically. What do you think are missing in the startup scene in Morocco compared to the US,
for example, or like let's say France, like a startup scene? What do you think is missing in
the startup scene in Morocco to be able to like I see a really like a new unicorn or like the
first unicorn in Morocco? That's a good question. I think what's really missing is the ingredients
that I'm trying to solve. It's trust. If you think about it, why we need to notarize our signatures
because we don't trust each other. I can't just sign a document and send it to you because you're
not going to trust me. And I may tomorrow be in front of a judge to say I never signed it.
That trust, this is a very simple trust example. That goes all over our society. We need to learn
how to trust each other. It goes both ways. I'll start with young entrepreneurs. A lot of them
are big dreamers, which is okay, but you can't be the dreamer and not be realistic. I mean, I had
adventures where I invested in some small startups where, you know, the founder was too ambitious
and, you know, no royalty, no trust. I mean, it's all about opportunism. There is no long-term vision.
There's a lot of short-sighted, quick results. Young people want results now. They want to get
rich now. That doesn't work. I mean, if you want to get rich now, go play the lottery, go do something
crazy. But that's not, that's not, you know, that's instant success that exists. I mean, to me, I mean,
look at me. I have, well, I started when I was 18. I'm 44 right now. That's 26 years of work.
Do I consider myself successful? Honestly, I don't. I consider myself very lucky. I've had a
very fulfilling career. My 26 years of working, I was never miserable a single day. I love what I
do every day. To me, that's success. And then I'm working towards a dream. I took 10 years. I'm
contributing to my country. I'm leaving footprint impacts. And then the money will come later,
even if it doesn't come. So what? The trip has been amazing. The adventure has been amazing. So
often we focus on the objective, but we don't focus on the journey. So you have to learn to
enjoy the journey every day of it. And of course, on the other side, there's banks, there's big
structures, there's clients. We also need to trust these young people. I mean, they're going to make
mistakes. They're going to make mistakes. Some of them are not going to be reliable, but not everybody
is bad. There's 1% or 2% that are bad. And we are going to punish 98% of Moroccan young people
and judge them and not give them opportunity because there was some bad apples. Trust is what's
missing and wrong. We also have to learn that trial and failure is not fatal. If you try something
that fails, nobody's going to cut your hand. Nobody is going to put you in prison. You're not going
to die starving. Try things, fail as much as possible, then you will succeed one day. But if
you're not failing, how the hell are you going to succeed? It doesn't come overnight. That's true.
That's true. That's really amazing thing to mention. And for people that would like to know
and reflection back to your 26 experience, what things you recommend for younger people and
people that are watching this episode who are mostly software developer who would like to get
their hand dirty in tech entrepreneurship, what thing that you would like to recommend?
My recommendation is taking the cliche that Steve Jobs said, stay foolish, stay hungry,
don't get the big head. Don't think that you're smarter than the person in front of you.
As we say in Arabic, don't be the smartest person in the room. The opposite. Think you are
the stupidest person in the room. That's how you stay humble. That's how you stay focused. That's
how you stay selfish. And that's how you keep dreaming naively until you get to your objective.
But if you wake up and you think you're all that, that's where you're not at. So stay foolish, stay
angry. So thank you so much Tadek for your time and really pleasure and honor to have you in my
podcast for the first episode of season two. And thank you so much. And you have a mic if you
would like to say the last word. Thank you for this invitation. And I want to thank all your
audience and tell them that I love you guys with Bledi. You are the future of Morocco.
You are the ones that we're all counting on. So please do not waste your time believing yourself
even when others don't screw them. It's all you and trust yourself. But again, stay curious,
stay naive, stay humble. And good luck guys. Thank you so much. Bye. Thank you. Bye bye.